Spinster aunt casts jaundiced eye at popular television show

I like it. I think the point of the show is that it doesn’t sugar-coat the era, which tv usually does.

It doesn’t pull any punches – you see all the sexual harassment, the lies, the abuse. It brings what is normally ignored into clear view.

I suppose it is possible to watch it and think it is glamorizing, but it has never struck me that way.

Crap. I meant to put that comment on the post about Jeremy Dude, and I put it on the Mad Men for some reason. Would you be able to delete it?

I just recently had this argument with someone. The dude in question was trying to point out that men don’t like skinny women – after all, the Sports Illustrated women have “curves.” When I tried to argue that the Sports Illustrated women probably top out at a size four, the argument about “curves” was made again as if I had not just said that. Strange.

Apparently men like women with some “meat” on them, but somehow that does not include fat women. There seems to be a very narrow window of dude acceptability. That comment “don’t get any ideas” really hammers home just how small that window can be.

Curves, dear Blamers, is just code for “big boobs” so don’t fall for that claptrap. The whole real women have curves shit just means that horny dudes approve of young women with big tits whose bodies have not yet dealt with the ravages of time, hormones and childbirth. Yes, real women do have curves, but generally not in dude -approved places. I have very curvy calves, for example, and I’m pretty sure that represents me having some “ideas.”

And January Jones is just towing the company line so she can keep her job. As Megan Fox found out, if you’re a dude designated hot chick and you make the mistake of actually speaking your mind, you will find yourself shit-canned from the next Transformers movie. Dudely Hollywood does not mess around with unruly hot chicks.

This post made me recall an artist I knew years ago who had a sculptural piece of an emaciated woman with ginormous boobs that she entitled “The Only Acceptable Fat On A Woman.”

The show shows how far we’ve come, true, but it’s a little smug about it. Dudes love this show because there’s plenty of blaming the victim going on. They love to hate that super-hot January Jones for divorcing the cheating sleazebag hero. They love to ogle the curves of Christina Hendricks because they are finally allowed to ogle some big bazooms on regular TV just like in their beloved porn. And she’s so down with her subordinate position!

I watch it anyway. I admit, I love the sixties and advertising.

Mad Men crushed any hope of writing fiction that would transform the world. You have to be orwell blatant for anyone to get it, and even then the readers manage to fuck it all up anyway.

The first two seasons of that show were way more about the women on the show and all the shit they put up with from men, and dudes were unable to understand any of it as a show about oppression. A lot of women didn’t either. There were comments on feministe about how “hot” it was when Don sexually assaulted a woman in order to intimidate her. To me it meant he is a god damned monster despite looking all normal (a rarity in television).

It is like they don’t understand that people from the 60’s are still alive or something. It wasn’t that long ago, this shit still matters. Ugh.

I hate this show. It’s all shiny and sexy and nostalgic about an even more backwards racist and misogynist time than we live in now. And even if the writers and producers don’t mean it to be (hah), so many liberal dudes I know love to watch and positively GLORY in the sexism. They they chuckle, they ogle, they high-five each other.

I tried to tell one liberal dood how sexist this show is but I don’t think he got my point owing to me being fairly inebriated. Shut him up though, because I could not be reasoned with!

There is a good article in the Graun by Susie Orbach on the subject of fashions in womens’ bodies.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/31/susie-orbach-ad-men-wrong-on-body-size

How is the show shiny and nostalgic? I think it paints a pretty bleak picture of what life was like for women at that time.

yeah, honestly, nearly every episode fills me with a bleak mix of sympathy for all the ways in which people’s personalities and life courses were compressed and restricted on all sides + repulsion at those who enjoyed the fruits of that constriction and/or managed not to acknowledge it at all. really well done, evocative, and just twisted.

somebody found that scene “hot”?!? spouse and I found our stomachs turned… ew.

(How the frak does one do block quotes? Sorry Kathleen, didn’t mean to quote you without attribution.)

Coincidentally, I just read a piece in the Atlantic online by Sady Doyle, wherein she nails another problem with this show:

“We’re encouraged to shake our heads at these men and their outdated attitudes, but by presenting discrimination as a shocking feature of a past era, Mad Men lets us imagine that it’s just one more of those things that We Don’t Do Any More.”

Interesting to think on. Sexism, racism and homophobia were overt then, and utterly normalised.
Now, the unholy trinity can be challenged when it is that overt, because so much of it is now covert, hidden in sexist language, in the arrogance of a people being asked whether same sex couples should have the same rights as opposite sex ones whilst yes, paying the same taxes, and in the million subtle ways that support and maintain the gender and colour gaps.

And the response is the same. Women accepted being called by their husband’s first name because it was so much easier to be part of the respectable establishment than to stick their necks out and say, ‘hey, hang on a minute…’ just as the previous generation demonised those women who suffered prison and humiliation for fighting for the vote, and just as now, women like Palin can claim to be ‘feminists’ because they have behaved like men and stepped on everyone else to gain power.

I do like Mad Men because it shows the eponymous Ad Men as utter shits, and it shows the way women collaborate to survive, it’s a shame that the vacuous comments of some of the actors detract from that.
Television as the opium of the people.

Interesting to think on. Sexism, racism and homophobia were overt then, and utterly normalised.

You couldn’t be implying that they are no longer overt or normalized!

“Because what men like should always be at the heart of a woman’s personal health regimen.”

That certainly nails it on the head. Which is why I pretty much reject all so-called women’s health information out-of-hand.

I find no merit or entertainment value in watching a show about a time when the only thing I could be doing is having babies and cleaning some white woman’s house. I wasn’t even alive back then, but I sure as hell know that I don’t need to experience it with the help of Hollywood now.

Same goes with TCM, which I also love anyway. Whenever I congratulate myself on my relative lack of racism, I remind myself that I obviously enjoy my privilege too much to be entirely free of it.

You make a block quote by using the tags blockquote and /blockquote in the html brackets.

Yes, I am gobsmacked that people would think that those days are long gone or something. Not much has changed at all, really, and all of the changes are at risk right now. You haven’t come THAT long of a way, baby!

Mad Men is pretty shitty anyway.

Oh wow, a show about the 60’s. How original.

Oh, gawd. I hate this “real women have curves” bullshit. Take it from someone that knows, scrawny girls loathe themselves as much as anyone. No one can really meet these beauty standards whether they’re curvy or skinny.

Oh, wait, I take it back, you can measure up if you have a small army of makeup artists, skin care professionals, personal trainers, hairstylists, and fashion designers whose sole job is to make you look good. See, we do get an opportunity to be beautiful after all. Gag.

I struggle with whether to watch shows that I interpret as having proto-feminist messages, when I know that a good section of the rest of the world sees them and chortles at the misogyny. “Castle” is one of my favorite shows, and I love watching Detective Beckett verbally flay the sexist men she has to work with. She’s such a strong female character in many ways, and the show gives her a lot of her own voice. She’s still objectified and humiliated on a regular basis, though, which makes me cringe to see it. Luckily, Comrade Dziga sees such behavior on the part of the male characters as being critiqued by the show (I’m not so convinced myself) so we watch it together. I wouldn’t want to watch it with anyone else for fear they’d be in sympathy when the guys catcall Beckett or treat her poorly. The show is constructed in such a way that it probably won’t disturb someone’s ingrained misogyny. But it’s certainly more feminist than “Desperate Housewives.”

To some extent, I feel like a lot of people are inclined to jump to the defense of Mad Men because it is an improvement over spiteful misogynist garbage like CSI or whatever. And sure, I’ll agree that it is an improvement, as I think most people (including Twisty?) will. I will even agree that I think it’s important to celebrate small steps forward.

But what is distinctly UN-important is to act as though a show is beyond reproach because it happens to be slightly less awful than the worst shit ever. Let’s not decide that feminism is over and we don’t have to criticize anymore just because a show has some positive feminist elements alongside the usual tripe.

Haven’t watched it. Have no plans to.

Should my diatribe survive the spamulator (which it probably shouldn’t), may I hasten to add that I’m not claiming to have had it particularly hard? At all? Pretty much standard for the late 80s/early 90s, particularly in male fields.

Jennifer? Ma’Whis’Ki? Wow! Thank you both so very, very much!

This is from an interview with Madmen actor Jon Hamm:

What qualities do you think men lack today that were present in those from the Mad Men era?
“There’s a cordialness that men had when dealing with the opposite sex, even when they were being blatantly sexist. It’s a weird conundrum. But that’s been replaced with men treating women like absolute garbage and not even being polite about it, which is too bad.”

It’s funny that antifeminist women complain that the women’s movement ruined that golden age when men were chivalrous and opened doors for us, because of course I’d like someone to at least be *polite* about it when they’re treating me like garbage!

I did try watching Nip/tuck back in the day. The difference is that one show is realistic and the other isn’t. I can believe Mad Men, reading The Feminine Mystique was part of the research for the writers. Nip/tuck has some of the most ridiculous story lines ever, and got all softcore porn around the time I quit watching. Nip/tuck was always out to try and shock everyone, like a bratty middle school kid.

I think Mad Men is brilliant, and the actors’ personal sound-byte views have no bearing on that whatsoever for me.

I’m interested to see where the writers/producers take it, because so far, it has been a very flash-yet-depressing peek into a privileged and sophisticated, yet morally bleak and meaningless, world. I agree with Katherine. And, up till now at least, I assumed the reason a lot of Americans don’t “get” the show is because it’s too slow, too subtle, and expects too much of its viewers. I enjoy watching each episode twice to catch all the callbacks to previous seasons’ dialogue, cultural references, and clues to character development.

I think we’re meant to feel conflicted about the characters, for one thing. They are mostly likable (especially the women, who are all obviously limited by social expectations and abused routinely by men and therefore sympathetic to the modern viewer), but also deeply flawed; therefore, more realistic than most prime time TV shows. I also think we’re meant to recoil at the sexism, racism, and classicism. I’m sure some segment of Middle America would find that it “glamorizes” those attitudes; but, because the show is so plodding and unconventionally plotted (many seeds are planted never to sprout, and many others bloom many seasons late, with shocking results), I also assume that most of Middle America has too short of an attention span to even watch.

This show is about a small, specific group of admittedly privileged people (well, most of them – there’s working class Peggy, for instance, who is a nascent feminist and all-around unconventional woman) grappling through a time of social and moral upheaval. Because we, the audience, know what’s coming, the show has a built-in sense of anxiety and pathos. It’s also beautifully *filmed*. Draper is an anti-hero. I am utterly fascinated, and am very curious as to where they take him, and whether we can ultimately take any judgments, philosophical or personal, from his story. Will he be redeemed? Is he just a dinosaur? Is he totally hollow? How much can we blame our childhoods for our adult transgressions? Does Don Draper represent anything at all, or is he just a hologram of the ad age?

And, while I agree with Twisty re: false declarations of “progress” regarding the acceptable “types” of female body, and I would never want to return to the era of girdles and cone bras, I admit I love the fashion. I never wear high heels or wiggle skirts, but I love some of the silhouettes, fabrics, and hats on this show, and I think the loss of the sense of formality people had back then is, in *some* ways, a bad thing.

I am also a Gen-Xer, and spent my formative feminist years pouring over my parents’ old yearbooks and photos from this era. I freely admit to some nostalgia and my tendency to try to “work myself out” through my parents’ life stories.

In other words: come for the style, stay for the story.

(Sorry this was so long; I read a *lot* about Mad Men on the Internet.)

Are there any shows with pro-feminist messages in today’s era? I’m not being rhetorical; I don’t watch TV. Too offensive. I’ve never seen Mad Men, but I think it’s easy enough to criticize what went on in the past because, well, that era is over so who really gives a shit? I’d like to see critiques of what goes on NOW, not then.

Lidon- Daria just came out on DVD. It totally counts. The step spawn is currently hooked on it, at the moment.

King of the Hill is very pro-feminist, for the most part. I can only think of one episode that was defied that.

Daria just came out on DVD. It totally counts. The step spawn is currently hooked on it, at the moment.

I haven’t seen Daria in years! I should watch that again.

Lidon- totally. I watched it a lot back in the day, but there are episodes on dvd that were not aired very often. Like when a teen magazine editor shows up at school, and when sandy gets fat. Those episodes were too feministy for MTV back then.

Do you guys think Aeon Flux counts? I am leaning towards yes.

I find the advertising frenzy around this show semi hilarious. I walked by a store trying to emulate the style, saying that you could maybe get on the show if you entered some raffle or something.

The show portrays advertisers as evil manipulative people. I mean, the dudes on that show do political campaigns and such. It is telling that real advertisers today cannot seem to get that message, but instead see an opportunity to huck more crappy merchandise. The show is probably pretty accurate. The pr machine is practically yelling “YES, WE REALLY ARE SCUM” with every themed ad they toss our way.

The faux vintage clorox ad decided to include that “maybe even some men” did laundry over the years. I am not sure how to take it, since it is the first time such a thing has even been suggested, but it still lays on thick the idea that women were doing the laundry 99% of the time.

Sometimes the show makes me think of a Shawn Colvin song called “The Story” – not so much in terms of Draper specifically, although Betty, for sure.

Colvin’s talking about childhood memories (I don’t know if they’re hers), bleak and abusive, and since she’s just a little younger than me, (born in 1956), she’s writing about a Mad Men-era world:

“…Well our father married our mother too young
And he took on a world like a fortunate son
But in the cellar downstairs
waiting for the bomb scare
He would hide from us under the kitchen

“Where she simmered so soft with her weapons of tin
And like so many suppers she just gave us to him
And he never did guess
in her cast iron dress
She was burning beyond recognition….”

I watch the show and I feel the temperature rising.

January Jones is whoever she is, personally. Professionally, she is employed by the machine that presents the TV show “Mad Men”. So she’s going to recite the party line. Look at what happens when you don’t. As lovepug noted above, you get whacked pretty hard, like Meghan Fox, and especially Katherine Heigl, who apparently everyone hates because she’s such a bitch, and so ungrateful: she actually suggested that her hit movie “Knocked Up” was kinda sexist!

(Also, January Jones plays a very unsympathetic role. Dislike of “Betty” can bleed over onto January, which I suspect she’s well aware of.)

So I’m inclined to cut her some slack. Sonia, I get what you’re saying, but here’s the thing: I don’t care what “they” expect me to feel about any particular scene or plot twist or relationship. Peggy and Don have an unusual relationship, for sure. They’ve seen each other at some pretty bad times, and neither has tattled on the other. Peggy’s on her way up, and she’s blazing her own trail when every signpost tells her she should be husband-hunting, or somebody’s arm-candy, or – more generally – working (if she must – and she must because she’s a working class woman) at something more appropriate, like nursing or teaching.

Not that many people are going to help her. The decent ones simply avoid messing her up. The typical ones don’t see her as a colleague, can’t look at her without thinking about having sex with her, resent her for any success, deride her for missteps, and ultimately despise her for taking a job away from a good family man who needs it.

Draper recognizes, however dimly, that she’s an outsider like he is, though his cover is still in place, plus there’s the penis-having, which is an automatic win. I’m not sure that qualifies as warmth or caring or even mentoring. He’s mostly just failing to make an effort to fuck up her career. In 1964, on Madison Avenue, that’s about as supportive as it gets.

Sometimes he almost sort of helps her. She may remind him of his pre-Don Draper self, so when he stays out of her way, he’s thumbing his nose at all of his colleagues who’d disown him in a minute if they knew about his miserable, coarse origins and his subsequent life of lies.

Just read a few more comments. I am quite through with the excuse that we are meant to recoil at the depiction of how woman are treated. This justification gets tossed around a lot it seems. It’s mere scintillation disguised as edgy eye-opening social commentary. Just another tired excuse to show hot, compliant women bowing, in the end, to the Patriarchy. There may be skill, talent, and worthy narrative involved in the production of the show, but because it toots the same stupid woman-hating tune underneath it all, it’s worthy only of being flushed.

Josquin – the review you seek is here: http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/07/29/the-girl-with-the-lots-of-creepy-disturbing-torture-that-pissed-me-off-on-stieg-larsson/

There’s a “Girl With The Dragon Tattoo” film playing at the local indie theatre here in Salt Lake City. I was planning to go see it based on a glowing review by a feminist who links this site. Is anyone aware of this film? I can’t imagine it’s not related to the books, but I just read that they just //recently// cast the lead for The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, and that the actress from the Harry Potter films even chopped off her hair in hopes of nabbing the role, so now I’m completely confused.

I have my problems with “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo,” but given how rare it is to have rape represented as completely horrifying and non-erotic (in films that make it to the US), I feel that the film is doing something necessary by showing the general public how rape isn’t a random psychopathic stranger in the dark. The rape scene in the film is all about power, not sex. It might open a few people’s eyes to the reality that Blamers already know.

Comrade Svilova, you’ve seen the film? I haven’t so the idea of over 10 min. of a rape scene just sounded very unnecessary and over the top to me and more for the purpose of men’s titillation. I mean ten minutes is a pretty huge chunk in movie time. But if it’s like you described I could be wrong. The books they’re based on, howevery, sound completely revolting. The link provided from tigerbeatdown gave plenty of examples why.

Nails, I wasn’t raised LDS or from Utah originally so it was major culture shock when I first arrived. I was already radfem before moving here. I have met some pretty cool liberal/progressive types, though. I’ve been to the Atheists Of Zion meetings a few times. But I haven’t met any open radical feminists. Atheists of Zion have a lot of libertarians in their group, but never heard any mention of feminism. It would be great to start an SLC radfem group and organize protests. Count me in!

One of the funniest thing I discovered when I first ventured out to explore the city was the Hooters restaurant on State St. in Midvale. Yes, even the goody-goody Mormons like them some Hooters.

I’ve been reading the archives the past few hours and loving every minute. Feminism would be lost without people like Twisty who just say it like it is.

Meanwhile don’t I get my comments come up automatic yet? They’ve been in the moderation queue since the science debate :/ Argh.

I now have no desire to watch Mad Men. And people who try to tell us how our bodies should look should be shackled and stuffed into Tuareg inspired fattening huts :-P

What I find interesting, in a boring sort of way, is that even with all those stupid, impossible, body standards men supposedly have for women, how many turn down an offer of sex from a less than perfect female body? Men are such sluts. Really, they’ll fuck anything. So what’s all the ruckus about re what we have to look like?